Violence in America - A followup
by expatbrian
(this is a followup post to the gun post below and a response to its comments)
Gun posts certainly do seem to elicit emotional interest. In the post below, I was careful not to mention gun control. I simply reported an incident, the type that seems to be occurring with increasing frequency, and propose a few "what ifs" hoping for some answers. None have been submitted thus far.
I am not so idealistic as to believe that meaningful gun control is even a remote possibility in the US either for criminals or the law abiding. Indeed, gun ownership is so pervasive, so very much a part of American culture, and their availability is so hugely widespread and encouraged, that the only sound prediction is that the saturation of guns in America has not and will probably never peak. Gun control is nothing but a cliche, a hollow utterance by some politicians looking for votes based on their non existent ability to protect the public from cirme.
Statistics are a wonderful tool that can certainly be used to prove that the number of murdered and wounded citizens is really quite small, even acceptable, except perhaps to those who are victimized by it. And the numbers of those seems especially tiny when comparing it to the total number of people in the country. However, the ratio of violent crime to the "population" might increase a little if one did not include newborns, babies, toddlers and say, children under 10, groups that rarely shoot other people and certainly don't own guns. It might also be increase if we eliminate the totally feeble and those who are institutionalized and have no access to guns. Add to that the people who, for whatever reason, don't believe in guns and thus don't and won't use them.
In other words, what are the numbers of gun crimes and victims when compared to just that part of the population that actually owns guns? Statistics are a wonderful tool.
We are still horrified about the 58,000 dead and hundreds of thousands wounded in Vietnam. Yet, when compared to the total population of the country at the time, that number is miniscule. Does that make it acceptable or less horrific? And certainly the number of dead Americans in the Iraqi war is not worth even mentioning when compared to the entire population of the US.
There is no doubt that as poverty becomes more pervasive and desperation becomes more acute, the number of violent crimes, including those crimes involving fire arms will increase. As more and more of the wealth is sucked from the society by the very few ultra rich, those left behind will use whatever means are available to survive. And herein, lies the future of America.
Ultimately, a society is judged, not by it's tag lines or its famous quotes or its declarations of freedom and equality. History judges a society by its behavior, its civility and its morality. How will history judge us? Will history look only at the words in our Constitution or the endearinig poem engraved on our lady of liberty? Will history talk about Truth, Justice, and the American Way and leave it at that? Will it call the US a bastion of world freedom and say no more? I think not.
An accurate history of the US will ultimately include its pervasive corporate and political corruption, its greed, its rampant consumption and waste of natural resources, its unquenchable thirst for drugs and its lust for power and position. It will include its racism and its assumption of being better than anyone else. It will include the increasing plight and numbers of the poor and their desperate struggles to survive. It will include the increasing level of violence and the startlingly cruel methods people use to inflict it upon each other. And it will include the state's inability and unwillingness to control it.
Do I believe in gun control? Yes. Do I think there are countries in which banning or controlling guns can be successful? Yes - already happening. Do I believe that the United States is one of those countries? Absolutely, positively not.
more from expatbrian at World Gone Mad
(this is a followup post to the gun post below and a response to its comments)
Gun posts certainly do seem to elicit emotional interest. In the post below, I was careful not to mention gun control. I simply reported an incident, the type that seems to be occurring with increasing frequency, and propose a few "what ifs" hoping for some answers. None have been submitted thus far.
I am not so idealistic as to believe that meaningful gun control is even a remote possibility in the US either for criminals or the law abiding. Indeed, gun ownership is so pervasive, so very much a part of American culture, and their availability is so hugely widespread and encouraged, that the only sound prediction is that the saturation of guns in America has not and will probably never peak. Gun control is nothing but a cliche, a hollow utterance by some politicians looking for votes based on their non existent ability to protect the public from cirme.
Statistics are a wonderful tool that can certainly be used to prove that the number of murdered and wounded citizens is really quite small, even acceptable, except perhaps to those who are victimized by it. And the numbers of those seems especially tiny when comparing it to the total number of people in the country. However, the ratio of violent crime to the "population" might increase a little if one did not include newborns, babies, toddlers and say, children under 10, groups that rarely shoot other people and certainly don't own guns. It might also be increase if we eliminate the totally feeble and those who are institutionalized and have no access to guns. Add to that the people who, for whatever reason, don't believe in guns and thus don't and won't use them.
In other words, what are the numbers of gun crimes and victims when compared to just that part of the population that actually owns guns? Statistics are a wonderful tool.
We are still horrified about the 58,000 dead and hundreds of thousands wounded in Vietnam. Yet, when compared to the total population of the country at the time, that number is miniscule. Does that make it acceptable or less horrific? And certainly the number of dead Americans in the Iraqi war is not worth even mentioning when compared to the entire population of the US.
There is no doubt that as poverty becomes more pervasive and desperation becomes more acute, the number of violent crimes, including those crimes involving fire arms will increase. As more and more of the wealth is sucked from the society by the very few ultra rich, those left behind will use whatever means are available to survive. And herein, lies the future of America.
Ultimately, a society is judged, not by it's tag lines or its famous quotes or its declarations of freedom and equality. History judges a society by its behavior, its civility and its morality. How will history judge us? Will history look only at the words in our Constitution or the endearinig poem engraved on our lady of liberty? Will history talk about Truth, Justice, and the American Way and leave it at that? Will it call the US a bastion of world freedom and say no more? I think not.
An accurate history of the US will ultimately include its pervasive corporate and political corruption, its greed, its rampant consumption and waste of natural resources, its unquenchable thirst for drugs and its lust for power and position. It will include its racism and its assumption of being better than anyone else. It will include the increasing plight and numbers of the poor and their desperate struggles to survive. It will include the increasing level of violence and the startlingly cruel methods people use to inflict it upon each other. And it will include the state's inability and unwillingness to control it.
Do I believe in gun control? Yes. Do I think there are countries in which banning or controlling guns can be successful? Yes - already happening. Do I believe that the United States is one of those countries? Absolutely, positively not.
more from expatbrian at World Gone Mad
posted by Libby Spencer at 10:15 PM
13 Comments:
And yet in a country like Switzerland where military service is mandatory and every man who serves takes his gun home, there is little gun violence; in fact Switzerland remains steadfastly neutral in the world arena.
In England where "successful" gun control has been a part of their society for years, they are now facing a problem with gangs and illegal guns being smuggled into the country.
The real problem is not the availability of weapons; it is the degeneration of a moral code and the lack of togetherness and caring. I'm not talking moral religion here, I'm talking about the moral compass our parents set us out into the world with. Don't take what isn't yours, don't hurt or kill another human being, be kind to animals; you are smarter and bigger than they are, tell the truth, and always remember we love you. People have kids like cats have kittens and expect them to be able to fend for themselves in 6 weeks. There is little by way of nurturing or discipline. I can't tell you the number of times I've been in a public place and heard small children using language on their parents that would have gotten my mouth washed out with soap and a spanking besides! There are no parental controls because parents mostly can't be bothered. People get together and split up as often as they change their clothes closet.Kids are on their own. Gun control is a finger in the dike. It might make you feel safer, but not me. The problems we live with in this country would require a complete divergence from the path we are on and several generations to change the current course of self destruction.
Thanks for the comment, Rocky. To simply blame parents for this disaster is a little simplistic. There is a myriad of forces working on US society and many places to point the finger of blame not the least of which is the complete lack of leadership and vision by our government. The economic hardships that are the result have placed overwhelming burdens and stress upon families and individuals and not everyone is able to cope at the same level.
I'm not blaming guns for anything. Gun violence is not the cause of the problem but a symptom of it.
But given the stress that people live under as they have to work harder and harder, struggle more and more just to survive and knowing that many finally get to the point where they simply cannot cope with it, having guns so easily available to these folks is a recipe for disaster.
And I don't think we've seen any where near the worst of it yet.
Hey skippy. Thanks for organizing it.
An accurate history of the US will ultimately include its pervasive corporate and political corruption, its greed, its rampant consumption and waste of natural resources, its unquenchable thirst for drugs and its lust for power and position. It will include its racism and its assumption of being better than anyone else. It will include the increasing plight and numbers of the poor and their desperate struggles to survive. It will include the increasing level of violence and the startlingly cruel methods people use to inflict it upon each other. And it will include the state's inability and unwillingness to control it.
I think you have it, basically, but we are not yet at the bottom and many more reasons will be added to the history explaining the ultimate failure of our present system.
With our freedom to succeed comes the freedom to fail and huge sections of our population are failing. There are few if any safety nets and in our present system where the wealth is so closely controlled, there will be none.
Somewhere in the not so distant future the vision of the Founding Fathers Second Amendment will be realized when the very guns that you wish to be controlled will be used to overthrow a corrupt and ineffective government. When the government can no longer provide security, then the government will no longer exist.
Guns will be needed.
I'm glad to have this subject on the table actually. Better to talk than to fling slogans, which is as far as it usually gets. I do share your disgust with American violence even in its sublimated forms or cage fighting and professional football.
"Gun violence is not the cause of the problem but a symptom of it."
I agree with that completely, but I will stand by my argument that the risk of anyone being shot is far, far lower than the risk of harm by other means that don't seem to generate the fear and loathing or the urge to give up our civil rights to deal with. Kids, after all, are killed in SUVs at a vastly more alarming rate and yet we insist that every mother have one for safety's sake and our driver training is an unfunny joke.
I'm not saying anything about acceptability, just questioning the size of the passion relative to the size of the problem and wondering about objectivity. Gun crime is not on the increase and when your kid is swimming in a riptide you should worry less about juvenile diabetes. ( which is on the increase)
The underlying social disease is indeed the problem and yet it's a topic kept from the table by our horror of taxation and a conviction that government is never the answer to the need for government. I agree again.
I'm not blaming it on parents - I'm blaming it on a country where parents sometimes tend to be 13 and ignorant and unemployable and alcoholic and dirt poor glue sniffers attracted to psychopathic boyfriends and where we won't do anything about it because we're riding a Libertarian high horse and talking about personal responsibility.
I blame it on a society where criminal behavior is romantic and violence seen as a tool of class warfare and social expression and where the most dangerous class of people has been artificially created by our various prohibitions and kept angry by politicians.
Isn't Switzerland an interesting contrast? Shooting sports are extremely popular and you see fully automatic assault rifles in the windows of hardware stores - but the Swiss are Swiss and Americans are not and only paper targets and clay pigeons are nervous over there.
Brian, I realize that parents aren't the single cause. But it certainly is where it begins to go wrong. Also, this government that we like to throw all the blame on is also a symptom of our sick society. Somebody voted these people in. Having guns readily available is a thorny issue, for sure.But no having them around doesn't necessarily mean anyone is safer. That woman in the southwest who drowned her children didn't need one. The guy in New Jersey who set his son on fire didn't use one either. My contention, no matter how simplistic you might think it is, is that relieving this kind of stress begins at home. So does learning the coping mechanisms needed.The son in the story you cited must have had this rage building for quite some time. He certainly didn't just pop off because someone took away his driving privleges or something. This must have been building over a period of time. His parents obviously didn't take the time to read their own son. Probably there are others in the schools, extended family, etc. who also ignored the signs of this kid's psychic pain. The kid may have had mental problems that weren't being dealt with. Far from a simplistic view, I'm actually looking at the big picture. There is probably a far more complex set of issues in this case than just the kid got pissed and offed his family. I don't think he would have "cooled off" once he went over the edge. He would have relieved his stress in some way. If he couldn't kill his family, he might have killed the little kid next door, who knows? No, I'm not saying his family deserved to die. It is a horrible tragedy, but I think the situation goes far deeper than the simple fact a gun was available.
Good points Fogg, and I'm not blaming parents per se. You do make a case for the rise in teen age pregnancy which certainly contributes to the illness in our society, but I do want parents to stand up and take responsibility for TRYING to turn out decent human beings. You can't always predict which path kids will choose when they come of age, but you can make an effort. I do not call it good parenting when I'm standing in a store and a woman old enough to know better is called a "fucking bitch" by her no more than 8 or 9 year old son. Nor do I call it good parenting when a parent makes endless excuses for their child's bad behavior without that child having consequences for their actions. Good citizenship starts at home, in the cradle.
I'm sure Brian will agree that countries like Singapore and Switzerland and the Netherlands have so little violence in part because the culture is different.
I've been told that we should not look to their examples because the US is different - and so it is, but you know, we could try. Violence free countries can be semi-police states or very liberal places. There is some other factor or perhaps a large number of factors. We could try to be more like them instead of hiding behind rhetoric about "personal responsibility" which really only means a preference for a government that leaves us completely alone, doesn't make us take responsibility for welfare in general and punishes the holy hell out of any miscreant who scares us.
Wow! Great debate and great comments. Rocky, I did not mean to imply that your position is "simple". Parents and their behavior is the foundation upon which a child's future is directed. But in modern American society, the economic and emotional pressures and stresses placed on parents, the ever increasing effort and hours it takes to attain or maintain an adequate lifestyle have interfered with the child rearing and I just don't see that changing. I see it getting worse.
So we have to attack this problem on multiple levels, not just through behavior mod for parents.
Libby thought drugs might be an issue - the legal kind that more and more parents approve for use on their children. It's another possibility. Even the media, where you can watch killings all night 7 nights a week plays a role.
Cap'n, I feel uneasy using comparisons of car accidents and the like simply because they kill more people and thus should recieve more attention. The car is not designed to be a tool of death, the gun is.
You are right, Cap, there are other differences in places like Switzerland and Singapore. I can't speak for our friends up north, but down here, there is an underlying respect for each other and each others property that I never felt in America. There is a much higher degree and focus on self discipline. And there is a very real and deep fear of death. I was quite surprised at that part, having formed an opinion in Vietnam that the asians took death quite lightly. Not so in non-war Singapore.
I'll be writing more...gotta go to work
Brian, first, don't worry about my feelings. I'm Libby's sister so you can imagine I have a pretty tough hide. I can usually hold my own.
Having raised four boys in the
1970s during times of economic downturns, I do understand the stress and pressures of parenting while holding two jobs, etc. My husband and I had a hell of a juggling act at times. That did not stop me from raising four hard working, honest, productive members of society. I think excusing poor parenting because of the "stress" of daily living is a cop out. And I think kids who are neglected are going to have poor life skills. As they grow into adults, the problems just get bigger. As a society, we buy into instant gratification and plastic payments and when it backfires as evidenced by our now burgeoning foreclosure crisis for one, we are not prepared to cope because no one wanted to consider the downside. I'm not sure what happened over the last 30 years, but like I commented on one of Capt Fogg's posts, I feel like I've taken a ride in the time machine and that the Morlocks are now in charge. Violence, warmongering, intolerance, cruelty all around us; it's very disheartening sometimes.
I've been thinking about this quite a bit due to the comments. I too was able to raise 3 great, non violent kids in the 70s and 80s. I never had a gun in the house and none of them are gun owners now.
I lived in a relatively safe neighborhood in San Jose, but as modern cities are, I could drive just a couple of miles and be in a bad, crime ridden neighborhood.
It is trajic isn't it that, when it comes to perhaps the most important and most stessful job in life - rearing children - there are no educational requirements at all! And doing it just like mom and dad is obviously not a guarantee of success.
I agree with rocky that there seems to be a shocking lack of discipline and respect among young people today. Its scary to think of them as adults...and parents themselves.
When a crime is committed with a gun that belongs to a parent, I think that parent should be prosecuted as an accessory or co conspirator. Parents have got to be held responsible for this ignorant and dangerous behavior or it will never change. Sure, it might mean jail time and time away from the home, but if the parent is this irresponsible it might be a good thing.
The whole thing is just so sad.
I am uncomfortable with the notion of trying to make policy based on the behavior of someone who was obviously completely insane. I just do not believe that anything short of locking each person in their own padded room with pre-cut food can ever really affect stuff like this.
Jim, thanks for the comment. Guns may be needed, but not for the reason you state. I don't think the people have the stomach for revolution anymore. And they're not willing or able to get over their petty differences long enough to join forces and organize.
No, I don't think guns will be used to overthrow the government. But I do think you may need them when that government sends its troops to your door to arrest you for your beliefs, or your religion, or what is in your phone records or on your computer.
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