Friday, May 04, 2007

Smile When You Say That

Yesterday in response to one of my posts about the apparent absence of any moderates in the Republican Party, Michael van der Galien took exception. That's great, most of what I write and post now I'll go back and read it later and think, "wow, that was pretty stupid". So, it doesn't trouble me at all when other people do the same. I thought he was doing just fine until this:
Besides, the Democrats have their own problems with the progressive, anti-semitic, anti-capitalism and, yes, in many ways anti-american base.
Let's take these one at a time.

Progressive. Let's see, is that the same as liberal? Nothing wrong with liberal or progressive. That's a label I can live with.

Anti-semitic. A problem there. Does he mean opposed to some of Israel's policies? I think he's just using one of the republican talking points here. With the republican party in congress totally controlled by the evangelical right, you would be called anti-semitic if you criticized Israel's highway system. Not agreeing with Israel's policies does not make you anti-semitic.

Anti-capitalism. According to the right if you are for a fair wage and good benefits for employees you are anti-capitalist. If you expect businesses to pay their fair share of taxes and not incorporate in some Caribbean country, you are anti-capitalist. If you are for the right of employees to collectively bargain, you're anti-capitalist. OK, I guess I can live with that title.

Now, we come to the biggie. Anti-American? I think some clarification is needed here. Just what do you mean? Do you mean opposed to the present U.S. government?
Do you mean using statements or encouraging positions that are un-American?

To be an American gives a citizen a lot of latitude in what they say and do before they become anti-American. I couldn't accuse any of the republicans in congress of being anti-American, it would be un-American of me to do so.

Now, that said, I think an American leader or government that encouraged or legalized torture is un-American.
I think to use pre-emptive war against another country without a clear and present danger or to lie about the danger is to be un-American.
I think to imprison American citizens without constitutional protections is to be un-American.

I think the republicans and George Bush are doing what they think is best. I just think they are wrong. They couldn't be anti-American, but they could employ actions that to me are un-American based on time honored traditions.

To accuse Americans of being anti-American is way over the top.

Jim Martin

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11 Comments:

Anonymous Anonymous said...

democrats are sort of reflexively anti capitalist.

3:12:00 PM  
Blogger Jim Martin said...

I'm not anti-capitalist myself, but if business does not treat it's employees fairly then they must be allowed to bargain collectively and the government should make sure it's a level playing field.

3:57:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

but that comes across as anti capitalist. as far as conservatism has sailed from it's roots, it is still vaguely anti state, which resonates with people who are economics minded. I run screaming from a phrase like "and the goverment should make sure". look at iraq and Katrina. it's the same government.

4:12:00 PM  
Blogger Jim Martin said...

Lester
Do you really think that it's a level playing field now?
You let businesses run things without regulations and you'll owe your soul to the company store.
I don't think that good government is no government. I think good government is good government.

4:49:00 PM  
Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

"as far as conservatism has sailed from it's roots, it is still vaguely anti state"

I find that amusing. Conservatism is situational and relative, else British loyalists would have been conservatives in 1776. Being a progressive or a liberal or a libertarian usually includes some degree of being anti-state or anti authoritarian, so I don't really see how it can be used to separate a conservative from the rest of the soup - unless this is just a test to see if we can spot a hidden syllogism with an undistributed middle term.

5:22:00 PM  
Blogger Jim Martin said...

capt. fogg
I looked up syllogism. I still don't know what it means.
But I do appreciate your comment.

8:37:00 PM  
Blogger Capt. Fogg said...

It means I'm siding with you against Lester.

If someone were, for instance, trying to use anti authoritarianism as a test for conservatism because conservatives are "vaguely anti-state" one would have to show that only conservatives were anti-state. Since this isn't true, any "resonance with people who are economics minded" doesn't mean much.

False syllogism:
All dogs have hair.
I have hair
I am a dog


Real syllogism:
Only dogs have hair.
I have hair
I am a dog


Woof woof - isn't this fun? :-)

10:21:00 PM  
Blogger Jim Martin said...

capt.fogg
You would make a great teacher.
Sometimes I act like I'm stupid.
Most people don't think I'm acting, that's what makes me a great actor. I really get into the part.
I almost chortled but that would change the subject from syllogisms to portmanteaux.
Thanks for helping with Lester, he's an OK guy.

10:42:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

jim- I think the non level playing field is the result of the current administration being overtly pro business rather than being pro free market. There are thousands of tariffs out there, the things populists love. there are thousands of environmental regulations too. the problem is the people lobbying for these thigns are the corporations themselves. I was just reading about how some water park was facing some competition from some new park that was going to go up down the road. So Waterpark A petitioned the government to have the area declared the natural habitat of some type of fox or something. That's just one example of how business can abuse so called "fairness" and regulations that are meant to keep them in check.


capt fogg- the conservatism i'm referring to is the modern american conservatism of goldwater and reagan. as in "the government isn't the solution to the problem, the government is the problem" "any government bi enough to give you whatever you want is big enough to take it away" and other small government philosophies.


and I don't think liberalism is at all anti authority unless you mean social liberalism. you can't be for the state and against it can you?

the benevolence of welfare and warfare are both myths and both do very little for anyone but the state itself.

10:04:00 AM  
Blogger Jim Martin said...

Lester
We have big social problems facing us that the government will have to be a big part of.
Health care and social security being the 500 lb gorillas in the room.
We're also faced with an aging infrastructure that will cost upwards of a trillion dollars to replace.
These are issues that only the government can handle.
We need leaders and all we get are politicians.

10:54:00 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

pinochet knew what to do with commie agitators like you

2:09:00 PM  

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