Generals In Iraq Not Happy
Think Progress reports that on NBC's Chris Matthews Show this morning Cynthia Tucker, a reporter for the Atlanta-Journal Constitution, cited sources that said that if the surge continues into 2008 there will be a revolt from active-duty generals.
There are too many generals finishing out their careers, securing their pensions, taking consulting or military expert positions with the press and THEN speaking out against the war.
I would hope that if a general officer could not in all good conscience follow his legal orders he would resign. It gets tiring to hear how much a general was opposed to this war after he has secured his pension and a good paying job.
Honor, Duty, Country, are more than just words.
Jim Martin
Noting that retired generals such as Gen. John Batiste have already begun voicing their discontent with the president’s strategy in Iraq, Tucker added that the generals “don’t want to fall by the wayside like the generals in Vietnam did, kept pushing a war that they knew was lost.”The generals worry that although Bush claims that force levels will be determined by the military, Bush has a track record of disregarding their opinions.
As recently as last December, when the White House was first pushing its escalation plan, the administration explicitly ignored “the unanimous disagreement of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.”I'm not sure what form this "revolt" will take. If the generals do not agree with the orders of the president, then their only recourse would be to resign and go public with their opinion. Any other revolt would be contrary to our history and tradition of the civilian government being in charge of the military.
There are too many generals finishing out their careers, securing their pensions, taking consulting or military expert positions with the press and THEN speaking out against the war.
I would hope that if a general officer could not in all good conscience follow his legal orders he would resign. It gets tiring to hear how much a general was opposed to this war after he has secured his pension and a good paying job.
Honor, Duty, Country, are more than just words.
Jim Martin
posted by Libby Spencer at 5:17 PM
12 Comments:
"There are too many generals finishing out their careers, securing their pensions, taking consulting or military expert positions with the press and THEN speaking out against the war.
I would hope that if a general officer could not in all good conscience follow his legal orders he would resign. It gets tiring to hear how much a general was opposed to this war after he has secured his pension and a good paying job."
Keep reading that passage over and over, implications that don't fit your current world view may eventually appear in the background.
B Moe
Ah - too bad repetition doesn't increase intelligence. So then it's OK for a military man to do evil without hesitation as long as he's following orders?
I thought I remembered they they swore allegiance to the constitution, not to Bush. I have a feeling that the world would have been spared considerable misery if a few more officers in various countries had had the conscience to resign.
Glaubst du nicht, Kamerad?
Let me try again while highlighting the significant portions:
"There are too many generals finishing out their careers, securing their pensions, taking consulting or military expert positions with the press and THEN speaking out against the war.
I would hope that if a general officer could not in all good conscience follow his legal orders he would resign. It gets tiring to hear how much a general was opposed to this war after he has secured his pension and a good paying job."
So we have two scenarios here, the General was dishonest while in service, violating his oath and according to some risking war crime violations, or he is being dishonest now, in order to enhance his marketability, and at no risk of prosecution. Is the possibility of the later really that inconceivable to you?
B Moe
Anyone at all familiar with the military or the Atlanta Journal Constitution or Cynthia Tucker's work -- should find the idea of Tucker "breaking" a story like this rather absurd. Way left, anti-war, lock solid Blue territory. Note that Tucker doesn't know anything directly relevant to this thread, but has a colleague who does. Very authoritative source, I'd say. "I know this guy who knows some guys, and I'd bet they'd say..."
And of course B Moe points out what should be obvious to opponents of the war, but never seems to be. You will always find opportunists to give you sound bites for your prejudices. But if you really are interested in truth, you'll find it elsewhere.
It all comes down to GEN Batiste (and several others) who are sucking up to the Democrats big time. This is a very profitable angle for such as these. Consultancies, political careers, appointments.
When you can find a Petraeus or a Franks or an Abizaid or a Schwartzkopf, then maybe you have someone worth listening to.
dadmanly said:
When you can find a Petraeus or a Franks or an Abizaid or a Schwartzkopf, then maybe you have someone worth listening to.
I feel if there was one on this list, then they would no longer be on this list, but I appreciate your comment.
"Is the possibility of the later really that inconceivable to you?"
Well the chip on your shoulder didn't look like a halo around your world view either.
We're not to believe ex-military experts who now criticize the war? And what of those who might be free equally equally to speak for it, particularly if they chance to be working for a war contractor?
There are many possible reasons for not wanting to retire during a conflict; some selfish, others more altruistic. Perhaps you might ruminate on it yourself if you don't have too much invested in your argument to be comfortable doing that.
Really, confusing possibility with probability in order to make a weak argument seem insurmountable reveals a prejudice that may be insurmountable, but only to you.
Isn't it just the same old shit? Everybody who doesn't love the war du jour is just a liar and an idiot? So you trust George Bush and you think his war was legitimate and you think we can suppress fundamentalist Islam with an occupation and our progress is remarkable and success is just around the corner - in fact we're almost there and we'd realize it if only the hippies and Jane Fonda and the Liberals and any other straw men you'd care to mention weren't deluding us. It's an off the shelf argument, easily tailored to fit any losing battle.
Yes, you can always find someone to back any myth, faith, belief, lie, fraud, grift, swindle, bungle, atrocity or crime. Thanks for reminding me.
capt.fogg
You do have a way with words.
We're not to believe ex-military experts who now criticize the war? And what of those who might be free equally equally to speak for it, particularly if they chance to be working for a war contractor?
I didn't say disbelieve necessarily, just give some thoughts to motives and causal relationships other than those Mr. Martin assumed in the original posts. Would you truly not question former Officers now employed by military contractors? If there motives might be colored by their employers, why could others not be also? This is very well said, it seems to apply to your argument above:
Perhaps you might ruminate on it yourself if you don't have too much invested in your argument to be comfortable doing that.
Really, confusing possibility with probability in order to make a weak argument seem insurmountable reveals a prejudice that may be insurmountable, but only to you.
I am not confused by the difference at all, are you? Possibility and probability are only matters of degree, and opinion.
B Moe
Ugh. What a pathetic post, Jim.
First, the title is misleading because it should read ex-generals, not generals. There is no evidence that active-duty generals are happy or unhappy or somewhere in between.
Second, Cynthia Tucker's job is columnist (and a solid-core liberal one at that), not reporter, as your very wiki link showed.
Third, she didn't cite any sources, as you asserted. Instead, she relayed what a fellow AJC employee told her, citing his anonymous sources. She basically cribbed the notes from a reporter in her newsroom so that she wouldn't look like an ill-informed idiot on Hardball.
Fourth, the unanimous disagreement from JCS was true in mid-December 2006 because there was no strategy to go with the surge. But since last February, no longer. Gen. Petraeus was promoted and there is (finally) a counterinsurgency strategy underway and which has the approval from all levels of command. Bush damn well better listen to this general.
Fifth, there were ex-generals were in revolt, six of them to be exact. But they were revolting against Rumsfeld and his unyielding and misfit ways. With Rumsfeld out of the picture and Gates in, the source of their discontent no longer exists, or at least it should no longer exist. There is most certainly evidence of dissatisfaction with the generals in Iraq, with LTC Yingling at the forefront.
Sixth, Batiste displayed glaring hypocrisy, supporting more troops last November but failing to give the strategy of more troops a fair shot. It's no wonder CBS fired his ass.
Mr. Bird
You are so right, she is a columnist.
Beyond that point you are entitled to your optimistic view and faith in the generals and their superiors.
It seems to be wishful thinking more than anything.
Looking back a few years, Bush supporters were all over those like Clark who wrote books condemning the rush to war and the lack of preparedness against terrorists. The same rhetoric about self-interest and timing and the same cynical sarcasm which in retrospect seems as misguided as is the dismissal of complaints by retired Generals.
Yes it's possible they are all only out to make some money, but looking at the overall picture, It's dangerously cynical to disregard them.
I would like to see a general revolt when the revolution actually meant something.
I have yet to hear one say that we are or were on the right course. Yet, they stay the course until retirement.
At what point does some of the blame for this fiasco fall on the generals?
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